Die Rosen (Gedichte in Französischer Sprache von Rilke)

[Rilke Fan]

Hallo one and all!

Rilke hat 27 Rosen Gedichte in der Französischer Sprache geschrieben. Hier sind einige, die ich interessant finde. (Anyone care to translate them into English for me?)

XII

Gegen wen, Rose,
hast Du Dich
mit diesen Dornen versehen?
Deine allzu zarte Freude,
hat sie Dich gezwungen,
zu diesem bewaffneten Ding zu werden?

Aber vor wem schützt Dich,
diese übertriebene Waffe?
Wie viele Feinde habe ich
von Dir abgesammelt,
die sie nicht fürchteten.
Im Gegenteil, von Sommer bis Herbst
verletzt Du die Fürsorge, die man Dir gibt.

I find this poem very interesting in light of the fact that shortly before Rilke's death, a thorn from one of his beloved roses caused an infection which some attribute to his death. It seems very ironic that he would write such words before that incident - Did he in his death answer the questions in this poem? Were the roses protecting themselves from him?

XXIII

Rose, sehr spät gekommene,
die die bitteren Nächte aufhalten
mit ihrere zu sternigen Helligkeit,
Rose, errätst du die leichten vollkommenen Wonnen
deiner sommerlichen Schwestern?

Während Tagen und Tagen sehe ich dich,
die du zögerst in deiner zu stark geschnürten Hülle,
Rose, die du, im Zur-Welt-Kommen,
die Langsamkeiten des Sterbens
in entgegengesetzter Richtung nachahmst.

Dein unzählbarer Zustand läßt er dich erkennen,
in einer Mischung, wo alles ineinander übergeht,
diesen unaussprechlichen Einklang des Nichts
und des Seins, von dem wir nichts wissen?


XXIV

Rose, hätte man dich draußen lassen sollen,
liebe Köstliche?
Was macht eine Rose da,
wo das Schicksal sich über uns verbraucht?

Kein Zurück. Hier bist du,
die du teilst mit uns, bestürzt, dieses Leben,
dieses Leben, das nicht von deiner Zeit ist.

[Marie]

Hallo Linda,

ich bin gerade erst nach Hause gekommen und freue mich über die Rosengedichte.
I'll try a translation at least of the first poem later on. I have been thinking about Rilke and roses today, so your topic seems to me an almost telepathic idea, thank you!

Liebe Grüße

[Volker]

Contre qui, rose,
avez-vous adopté
ces épines?
Votre joie trop fine
vous a-t-elle forcée
de devenir cette chose
armée?

Mais de qui vous protège
cette arme exagérée?
Combien d'ennemis vous ai-je
enlevés
qui ne la craignaient point.
Au contraire, d'été en automne,
vous blessez les soins
qu'on vous donne.

Gegen wen, Rose,
hast Du Dich
mit diesen Dornen versehen?
Deine allzu zarte Freude,
hat sie Dich gezwungen,
zu diesem bewaffneten Ding zu werden?

Aber vor wem schützt Dich,
diese übertriebene Waffe?
Wie viele Feinde habe ich
von Dir abgesammelt,
die sie nicht fürchteten.
Im Gegenteil, von Sommer bis Herbst
verletzt Du die Fürsorge, die man Dir gibt.


Hallo,
von wem ist denn die Übersetzung (von franz. in dt.)?
Wäre es nicht besser, direkt von franz. in englisch zu übersetzen?
Sonst geht zu viel vom Original verloren, glaube ich.
Ich finde, schon diese Übersetzung "klingt" nicht nach Rilke.
MEIN Französisch reicht aber NICHT zum Übersetzen!

Hi Linda,
where did you find the German traslation? Did YOU do it?
If not, who did it? I would like to help with a translation from German into English but wouldn't it be better do translate directly from French into English?
Unfortunately, my French is almost "rien ne va plus"
So I can't help you with this.

[Marie]

Hi Linda,

I have the same sceptical thoughts as Volker. That's why I just give a literal translation without any "Rilke-music" in it:

Against whom, rose
did you provide yourself
with these thorns?
This too tender delight of yours,
did it force you
to become this armed thing?

But against whom do you protect yourself
with this exaggerated weapon?
How many enemies have I
collected from you
who didn't fear it?
On the contrary, from summer to autumn
you are hurting the care that is given to you.

Liebe Grüße

[Rilke Fan]

Hi Marie and Volker,

First, thanks so much for the translation, Marie. It says pretty much what I thought it did, but the German word order was confusing to me in a couple of lines.

The poems are from the new book "RILKE WERKE Kommentierte Ausgabe, Supplementband Gedichte in französischer Sprache," translated from French into German (the same book I got the other poems from that I posted in response to e.u.'s posting with questions about that book) - that's why they sound different from Rilke. And yes, you are probably right about losing even more in the translation process, but since I don't speak French, I don't really mind, and I'm only interested in a literal translation, word for word pretty much. I understand just enoughGerman to be able to use your translation and look at the German words, and then understand the German pretty well. Once I see your translation, I usually think, "Oh yeah! Why didn't I see that?" I think that most of my problems with German have to do with the word order and the use of the dative case, as well as the passive voice, especially when it is "subjectless." Meanwhile, I am trying to spend some time reviewing my German, but it is a slow process.

I'm glad you liked the poems, Marie, despite the fact that they are not Rilke's true form, but still they are poems that we would never have experienced otherwise, if they had not have been translated from the French into German, right? I believe this is the first time they have been translated into German, isn't it, or was there an earlier translation that I am unaware of?

Liebe Grüße,

Linda

[Marie]

Hi Linda,

I'm glad the translation was a help to you. I'm so much interested in the other rose-poems. If you can find the time to post them just one or two at one time (without any need to hurry) that would be great! Sadly, the French language (as well as my beloved Italian) is one thing I can't remember yet (but I'm quite sure I'll do some day without having to learn it again!) Today I'm out until late this evening. If Volker hasn't finished the translation of the other poems meanwhile I'll continue with it maybe tomorrow.

Liebe Grüße

Hallo "alter Seebär", fühle dich nicht gehemmt, die Übersetzungen vor mir rein zu stellen! Ich gönne dir die Lorbeern!

[Rilke Fan]

Hi Marie and Volker,

I will gladly post the remaining Rose poems for you, Marie, a few at a time, starting from the beginning of the book. It will be fun to share them with you and to hear any special thoughts you (or Volker) have about them. You may not like most of them because they really don't sound so much like Rilke because of the translation, but still, as I already mentioned, they are poems from him that we would otherwise never have experienced. I find there is usually at least one line in all of Rilke's poems that catches my attention or makes me stop and think.

Also, I have found an English translation for the poems above (from the French), but I'd still like very much to hear the translation from the German. Should I post the French-English translation I found or would you rather just translate from the German poems above?

Liebe Grüße,

Linda

[Marie]

Hi Linda,

I leave it up to your intuition wether to post the German or the English versions. I think your feeling for the languages is good enough to decide which translation from the French originals sounds more Rilke-like, that's the main thing. Maybe the "French Rilke" sounds even in the originals different to the "German Rilke" and he has expressed his feelings and thoughts in a way that only the French language made possible?! Also, reading the translations is a request to listen between the lines and to find him somewhere there, whispering the true meaning of the poem...

Liebe Grüße

[Rilke Fan]

Liebe Marie,

What I meant to say was that I have found the French-English translation for the poems I had already posted (above) that I was hoping you or Volker would attempt to translate from the German. It is somewhat confusing. Apparently the German translation uses different numbers for some of the poems than what the French-English uses (for example number XXIV in the German book is not the same poem in the French-English book. But I have figured it out now. XXIV in the German book is XXVII in the French-English). I know this is probably confusing (as it was for me). The main thing is that I now have the French-English translation for the poems I had hoped you or Volker would translate, but even though I have them from the French to English, I'd still like to hear your translation of the German (for the two remaining poems which I will post again below), and what I was asking in my last note was if you'd like for me to post the French-English (FR-ENG) translation of those two poems to help with your translation of the poem from the German. I'd rather hear your translation without the influence of the FR-ENG, but it would probably be easier for you to use the FR-ENG translation. I feel like I'm talking in circles. I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Also, I will post a few of the other Rose poems later today (in both the English and German so that you can compare them)!

Again, here are the two poems (from the posting above) that I was hoping you or Volker would attempt to translate (just literally).

XXIII

Rose, sehr spät gekommene,
die die bitteren Nächte aufhalten
mit ihrere zu sternigen Helligkeit,
Rose, errätst du die leichten vollkommenen Wonnen
deiner sommerlichen Schwestern?

Während Tagen und Tagen sehe ich dich,
die du zögerst in deiner zu stark geschnürten Hülle,
Rose, die du, im Zur-Welt-Kommen,
die Langsamkeiten des Sterbens
in entgegengesetzter Richtung nachahmst.

Dein unzählbarer Zustand läßt er dich erkennen,
in einer Mischung, wo alles ineinander übergeht,
diesen unaussprechlichen Einklang des Nichts
und des Seins, von dem wir nichts wissen?


XXIV

Rose, hätte man dich draußen lassen sollen,
liebe Köstliche?
Was macht eine Rose da,
wo das Schicksal sich über uns verbraucht?

Kein Zurück. Hier bist du,
die du teilst mit uns, bestürzt, dieses Leben,
dieses Leben, das nicht von deiner Zeit ist.

Liebe Grüße, Linda

[Marie]

Hi Linda,

if you like to have a translation of the two poems from Volker or/and me, we could try it (Volker, you too?). By the way, it might be better to compare it afterwards with your English versions, to get our own impressions of it at first.

Liebe Grüße

[Volker]

Rose, venue très tard, que les nuits amères arrêtent
par leur trop sidérale clarté,
rose, devines-tu les faciles délices compètes
de tes soeurs d'été?

Pendant des jours et des jours je te vois qui hésites
dans ta gaine serrée trop fort.
Rose qui, en naissant à rebours imites
les lenteurs de la mort.

Ton innombrables état te fait-il connaître
dans un mélange où tout se confond,
cet ineffable accord du néant et de l'être
que nous ignorons?


Rose, sehr spät gekommene,
die die bitteren Nächte aufhalten
mit ihrer zu sternigen Helligkeit,
Rose, errätst du die leichten vollkommenen Wonnen
deiner sommerlichen Schwestern?

Während Tagen und Tagen sehe ich dich,
die du zögerst in deiner zu stark geschnürten Hülle,
Rose, die du, im Zur-Welt-Kommen,
die Langsamkeiten des Sterbens
in entgegengesetzter Richtung nachahmst.

Dein unzählbarer Zustand läßt er dich erkennen,
in einer Mischung, wo alles ineinander übergeht,
diesen unaussprechlichen Einklang des Nichts
und des Seins, von dem wir nichts wissen?

Rose, you came late, held up by bitter nights
in their ever too starry clearness,
rose, do you divine the light, full joys
of your summer sisters?

For days and days I saw you hesitating
in your envelope locked too firm.
Rose, being born, in reverse you imitate
the lenghts of death.

Your uncountable state, does it make you know
in a mixture where everything mingles
this unspeakable harmony of nothing and being
which we ignore?



OK, I translated a little bit freely, as ususal. Hope you like it.
Umm - I wasn't quite sure about the "too firm" - should it be "firmly"?

[ulrich]

[Rilke Fan]

Hi Volker,

Thanks so much for the translation. Very nice! I'll post the French-English once I see if Marie has worked on a translation or not. I think you will be surprised how close you were to the FR-ENG translation in some places, but I prefer many of your words (as I thought I would!).

The picture is also lovely!

Viele Grüße,

Linda

[Volker]

Hallo Ulrich,
schönes Bild! - ist es von Redon?

[ulrich]

Diese Bild heisst 'Rose for Odilon' (...Redon natuerlich), ist meine eigene Schoepfung. Habe aber, wie bei den meisten meiner Arbeiten, ueberhaupt nicht an Redon oder ein anders 'Thema' bewusst gedacht, habe nur meine Arbeit getan und mit dem was an der Oberflaeche meines Bewusstseins und an sichtbaren Material in der Welt war, gearbeitet. So entstehen Bilder, die mehr sind als ich bin, die aber auch meine Essenz widerspiegeln - so wie alle Formen der Kunst die Essenz widerspiegeln. RIlke sagt das einmal in dem Florenzer Tagebuch, dass seine ganze Arbeit nur Liebe ist. Und Kunst ist nur Liebe.
Ja in diesem Sinne also,
love
und danke fuer die Rosen...