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Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi Marie,

I really like your interpretation of this poem!. It’s very interesting and helpful in understanding the poem. I’m afraid I often get so bogged down in the translation of Rilke’s poems, that I never get around to interpreting them. Also, it is always nice to hear someone else’s interpretation of a poem. I get so aggravated at my husband because he has absolutely NO interest in poetry, and is absolutely no help if I ask him what he thinks something means. He says he doesn’t want to have to try to figure out what someone was trying to say. He doesn’t want to be bothered with thinking about things. I’m just the opposite. I love trying to find the hidden meaning behind things!

I especially liked your interpretation of “aus Gottes großem Brücken-Bau” and the idea that “deiner Mitte” is a metaphor for "soul." Very nice! I’m not sure I would have thought of that without your help!

I wasn’t sure what you meant when you said: “clever” seems to me to be the more common version." What do you mean by “common version?”

Although the hyphen can be used in English in much the same way you described, it is more often used to “join” two words that normally wouldn’t go together or to show that two words are connected to each other. It is also often used to clarify which word in the sentence it modifies. So, theoretically “teammate” could be hyphenated, but it wouldn’t really change anything or show any special meaning. However, if you hyphenated the word “playmate,” then you could definitely read something else into it! (Playmate is a term normally used with children, however it could take on another meaning). It’s interesting that the hyphen is used in German to “separate” two words, while the hyphen is used in English mostly to “join” two words. I don’t know why, but I don’t like the look of hyphenated words, so I tend to leave them out, but I’m very happy to know the special significance of the hyphen in German words.

Liebe Grüße,

Linda
Marie
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Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
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Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

just a short answer to your question for now. With "common" I meant the daily use of the word. "Clever" is used in so many different ways of colloquial speech. I wasn't sure if it is still a term with a clearly defined meaning or if it sounds to "modern" in a classic poem? :shock:

Viele Grüße M.
Marie
Beiträge: 308
Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
Wohnort: rhld.-pfalz

Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

I didn’t have much time the last few days and I’ll be out the whole day tomorrow. So I quickly add a few things I forgot to mention yesterday. At first some words about the hyphen: as I already wrote you don’t generally use it in German to separate words, either. It’s more a linguistic method to emphasize words used by philosophers and poets.
I don’t expect that anyone agrees to my subjective interpretations but, nevertheless, I’m glad if someone does! I like to get into the mystic side of Rilke’s poetry and if you once started being occupied with this you can hardly stop it anymore because again and again you find new fascinating insights and the marvellous way he had put it in metaphors and comparisons is a wonderful way to get to a deeper understanding of the greater dimensions as well as of the “things”! Maybe it’s because I’m working as a Yoga teacher and also practised other Asian techniques such as Shiatsu and Tai Qi so that Rilke’s way of seeing life (in German we call it “Weltanschauung” for which I couldn’t find an appropriate translation in the dictionary) is close to my own thoughts (but much more beautifully expressed!).
Don’t bother about your husbands attitude towards lyrics – you are so busy with your translations and interpretations that it’s probably a wise decision to be married with someone who reminds you of some other meanings of life (my husband has just shouted from the other side of the room after I read the last sentence loud: “Sollte ich das vielleicht auch mal tun?” :twisted: ) If you need to talk about lyrics you’ll find some “madmen/-women” at the Forum who share your passion!!!

Liebe Grüße M. :wink:
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi Marie,

The word that you were looking for is "worldview" (Weltanschauung). And everything you expressed about the mysticism of Rilke's poetry and his philosophical views is exactly the same way I feel. That is why I am so drawn to Rilke's poetry. When I first discovered his poetry, I immediately sensed that there was so much more behind his words than what meets the eye -- more than you could at first take in. He is so much more than just a poet!

I love his poems because they leave you thinking and cause you to want to go deeper into yourself and also into his writings. Right now there is so much more I want to know about him, that I scarcely know where to begin. I want to know more about his life and what was going on in his life when he wrote all of these poems - I want to know what mystical forces were behind them. I have always been interested in the metaphysical anyway.

The problem is, I have so many books from him and two biographies which I just recently purchased (one from Ralph Freedman, the other from Wolfgang Leppmann). I don't know which one to begin with, and with all of my translations and now the forum, I don't have enough time. Meanwhile I am getting behind on things at home, but it is so much fun talking about Rilke, and I am so happy to have discovered my new Rilke friends at the forum!

Liebe Grüße,

Linda :lol:
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi, it's me again.

I forgot to mention that I also want to know what happened that changed Rilke's religious views. I suspect that it perhaps had something to do with Lou-Andreas Salome, though I haven't read enough to know yet. What I mean is that he seemed to be so into the Christian faith when he wrote the first part of the Book of Hours (Das Stundenbuch), saying that he received what he called "inner dictations," and yet I sense a change in the later poems of this book which seem to convey a lack or loss of faith in God. I know that he mentions Buddha in some of his poems, and I am thinking he must have converted to that religion or philosophical way of thinking at some point.

Liebe Grüße,

Linda
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi Marie,

You mentioned the poem “Da Steht der Tod” a while back, and I wanted to share a few words with you from one of my Rilke books concerning that poem. They are probably already familiar to you, but I thought I’d share them anyway.

A comment from Princess Marie von Thurn regarding the poem “Da Steht der Tod:”

“Rilke told me how this poem arose. He was walking, alone as always, in a Munich park. All at once he seemed to see a hand before his eyes; on it’s level back a cup was standing. He saw this quite distinctly, and the verses describing it formed by themselves. He didn’t quite know what to make of this, and went home still hazy about the meaning of what had been begun. As in a dream he continued the poem to its conclusion – and understood. And suddenly the last three lines were there, in strongest contrast to the preceding ones. As for the shooting star, he had seen it in Toledo. One night he had been walking across the bridge and suddenly a glorious meteor had plunged across the sky, from the zenith down to the dark horizon, and vanished. – That was death, in all its wonder.” (Princess Marie von Thurn und Taxis-Hohenlohe, Errinnerungen an Rainer Marie Rilke, München-Berlin-Zürich: R. Oldenbourg, 1932, p. 80 f.) - From the book "Ahead of All Parting: The Selected Poetry and Prose of Rainer Maria Rilke," Edited and translated by Stephen Mitchell.

The first time I read this was an awesome experience! I was listening to the song “Walking in the Air” by George Winston, and it was one of those moments you can never again recapture. As I read the above words with the soft music in the background, it gave me chills, and I thought to myself: “Wow, perhaps someday I too shall be walking in the air.”

Liebe Grüße,

Linda 8)
Zuletzt geändert von Rilke Fan am 24. Mai 2003, 16:14, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Marie
Beiträge: 308
Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
Wohnort: rhld.-pfalz

Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

I'll give you a detailed response tomorrow, because I came back late this evening. I want to look at some books first, to be able to give you some more information about the poem and the biographical literature. It's always much more fascinating to hear about a personal experience someone else had with a special poem. That brings it out of the books and back into life - which, I think, is the best thing that can happen to a poem and it's writer!
I've read the letter exchange between Rilke and Marie Taxis and you can find a lot about Rilke's mystical and religious side in it. I haven't read much about L. Andreas-Salomé, but concerning religion, I think, it often refers to a psychoanalytic/scientific view - so this surely is interesting, too.

Viele Grüße M.
Marie
Beiträge: 308
Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
Wohnort: rhld.-pfalz

Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

I'm sorry that I haven't looked for the information about Rilke's religious change yet. I know that I read something interesting about Rilke's attitude towards the Islam in contrast to Christianity in E. Holthusen's biography and in a few letters. Rilke preferred the islamistic religion quite passionately while he was visiting Egypt in 1910/11 and during his journey to Spain. I will post the quotations for you as soon as possible. (Volker, don't be shy to be quicker than me ! :wink: )

I've had a happy moment yesterday when I discovered the first rose blooming in my garden. The wonderful scent is indescribable and fits to the name: "Claire Renaissance".

Liebe Grüße M.
Marie
Beiträge: 308
Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
Wohnort: rhld.-pfalz

Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

you mentioned Freedman’s biography. There you will find a lot about Rilke and Lou Andreas-Salomé and her influence on him (not only regarding to the psychoanalytical interrelations). I’m not very into this subject, also I wrote a couple of seminar papers about Freud at university (at least a hundred years ago!). I’m still in a strange distance to psychoanalysis, but I’m interested in C. G. Jung’s analytical psychology which in my opinion is much more enlightening the “unknown land” of the soul. Rilke kept distance, too. He refused to get a psychoanalytical treatment (Lou had advised him to do so, but later she changed her mind about it) Rilke believed that this would be the end of his poetry.

Lou also remained strange to me. She must have been a very intelligent, modern thinking person with a lot of ambitions and great power, but I don’t think I would have liked her as a friend. (I’m just toying with thoughts) She generously gave love, care and anything a person could have required as long as she stayed the centre of one’s life and demanded complete devotion. After Rilke had married Clara Westhoff she dropped him when he needed her most (Freedman writes explicitly about it). Years later he had to crawl on his knees to win back her attention (which he didn’t loose until his dath)It’s this unequal dependence I mistrust. In a letter I read he described her like a devotee talking about his guru. But, nevertheless, it must have been a kind of symbiosis between the two.
Rilke had a capability that was on the other hand a weakness: his almost telepathic adaptability opened him many doors. Like a child who cries “hunger” and “thirst” he waqs able to get everything he needed from others and justified it with his destiny as a poet. (His friend, the philosopher R. Kassner for example was the exact opposite in this context). His relation to Lou probably reached a state of equal rights in the later years, but I’m not sure, if he was completely aware of her conditions of love. Usually – besides all romantic views – he saw very clearly the weak sides of a person after the enthusiastic part of a romance had been over (for example: Eleonora Duse, Magda v. Hattingberg and others).

Another deficitwas his inability to make a clear decision. He didn’t simply say “yes” or “no” in a relationship. Instead he wrote poems and long letters (Marina Zwetajewa, Baladine Klossowaska …) – which is good for us now but was a catastrophe for some women he knew. The argument that he didn’t want to hurt someone was, I believe, more an excuse for his lack of making definite decisions.

That has been a quite critical view on Rilke – I’m surprised about myself! I don’t feel it as a judging opinion rather than a trial to look at even an admired person from all sides. (To love someone/ someone’s work despite his insufficiencies is even more precious, don’t you think so?)

I still owe you the answers and quotations I promised, but that has just been in my mind and wants to be posted!

Liebe Grüße M
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi Marie,

I didn't know that Rilke was ever interested in the Islamic religion. I'd be interested to know more about this. What little I know about his religious views comes from the introduction to the Book of Hours (Das Stundenbuch). The authors of the book (Anita Barrows/Joann Macy) mention that after returning "from a journey to Russia, that he immersed himself in the spirituality he discovered there." But as I mentioned, I noticed a change in his tone in his later poems, and have always wondered what precipitated the change. When I ever get around to reading his biography, I am sure I will find all the answers, but for now I am in the dark.

Looking forward to your response,

Linda
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi again,

Just a couple more thoughts in regards to what you wrote. I feel pretty much the same way you do about Rilke's shortcomings or weaknesses. I tend not to be too critical of him. And after all, we all have our faults, but more than anything, I think we can overlook a lot in view of his tremendous literary contribution to the world. Also, with the strange childhood he had, it is little wonder that he was a bit eccentric to say the least.

Considering how philosophical he was by nature though, I find it somewhat surprising that he refused psychoanalytical evaluation or treatment, but I have read the same thing that you mentioned - that it might well have unraveled his deepest sources of poetry.

Liebe Grüße,

Linda
Gast

Beitrag von Gast »

Hi Linda,

the quotations about Rilke’s Islamic sympathy (with a few more full stops then Rilke has put in):

„By the way, I have to tell you, Princess, since I’ve stayed in Cordoba I’m almost radically Antichristian. I’m reading the Koran. In some parts of it there is a voice I’m getting into with all my power (strength) like the wind is getting into the organ (he meant the music instrument. (M.)) You seem to be in a Christian country, but it’s already past. It was Christian as long as one had the courage to kill a hundred steps in front of the city. (…) Honestly, one shouldn’t sit any longer at this table where everything has been eaten up. The fruit is sucked out, all that’s left to do is to spy out the skin. That’s where Protestants and American Christians again and again are making infusions (double meaning: rehash. (M.)) with this teasediment that has been left to brew for 2000 years. Mohammed indeed was the closest one. Like a river flowing through an ancient mountain he broke through to a God with whom you can talk so wonderfully every morning and you don’t have to use the phone “Jesus Christ” and continue calling: Hello, who’s there? And nobody answers.

(to Marie Taxis, Ronda, 17th Dec. 1912)

The other reproach towards Christianity, which was psychoanalysis-inspired, was related to sexuality. He wrote a short prose text about it in 1922 (Der Brief des jungen Arbeiters). In his eyes (and there he used a typical term of psychoanalysis: repression) Christianity had made sexuality “homeless”.

“If guilt and atonement must have been invented to tension the inner disposition (“Gemüt”, impossible to translate), why did they cling it to this part of the body? Why did they drop it in there and waited that it dissolves in our clear well to poison it and make it cloudy?”

I doubt that he’s had similar thoughts about the Islam in regard to sexuality – anyway, I couldn’t find any quotations about this.

I had a few thoughts in my mind about Rilke’s praising of a person’s “own death” or the “great death” and the tragic way he himself faced death. I think, I’ll post it maybe tomorrow as a new topic under “Rilke menschlich” with the title: Rilke und der Tod. It’s best to write it in German first, but I’ll give you a translation if needed, of course!

Liebe Grüße M.
Gast

Beitrag von Gast »

Hi Marie,

Thanks for this information. It is pretty much what I had anticipated. Which book did you get the information in the first section from? I have read the part about the "telephone" and "Jesus" somewhere else, but I can't recall where.

I'll be looking forward to your new posting!

Liebe Grüße,

Linda
Marie
Beiträge: 308
Registriert: 9. Mär 2003, 21:27
Wohnort: rhld.-pfalz

Beitrag von Marie »

Hi Linda,

the first quotation you'll either find in the letter exchange between Rilke and Marie Taxis or in the biography of Hans Egon Holthusen (probably in other biographies as well).

I hope I'll find the time to post the new topic tomorrow, because I have to work late. :roll:

Liebe Grüße M.
Rilke Fan
Beiträge: 187
Registriert: 8. Apr 2003, 18:56
Wohnort: Texas, USA

Beitrag von Rilke Fan »

Hi Marie,

That's okay, Marie. Take your time and don't feel rushed about posting. I understand. I've been quite busy the past few days too!

Liebe Grüße,

Linda

P.S. I am so excited! - I just received my copy of RMR Sämtliche Werke, Band 2 in the mail yesterday. Hopefully I'll be able to find everything I've been looking for, so I won't have to keep asking for help in locating the poems I couldn't find in German. :lol:
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